Discussion:
The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule" AKA The Tueller Drill
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raykeller
2016-12-03 05:48:05 UTC
Permalink
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli

Photo: Martinelli & Associates

For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.

The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.

After repeating the drill numerous times, Tueller-who is now retired-wrote
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.

But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?

Reactionary Gap

Tueller designed his firearms action-reaction experiment as a training
device to help his students better understand the concept of the
"reactionary gap." The reactionary gap is a human factors formula that
compares action vs. reaction. In humans, sudden action is usually faster
than a defensive response or reaction. The closer an assailant is to an
officer, the less time an officer has to defensively react to any aggressive
action the assailant makes.

Tueller has said in video interviews that he never designed nor presented
his firearms training drill as an organized, outlined, and implemented
research project involving the applied sciences of psychophysiology,
physics, and related human factors. No forensic testing, examination,
reconciliation of data, or scientific oversight of a research model was ever
conducted.

During the past 30 years since the 21-Foot Rule has become informal doctrine
within the law enforcement community, I have heard it misstated,
misrepresented, and bastardized by use-of-force, firearms, and police
practices experts from all sides. I actually reviewed an officer-involved
shooting case where an officer with a carbine shot and killed a suspect
armed with a knife from a distance of more than 150 feet and attempted to
use the "Tueller Drill" as his defense.

Instructors and experts also seem to have forgotten that the original
scenario of Lt. Tueller's drill involved an officer with a holstered sidearm
drawing and accurately firing his weapon. In the vast majority of
officer-involved shootings I have investigated or reviewed, the officers
already had their guns out of their holsters and were either at the "low
ready" position or directly aimed at the suspects who were either armed with
knives or furtively reaching into their waistbands.

So what are the real forensic facts that might assist officers with their
officer safety and deadly force determinations?

Actually, there are no forensically proven facts that I am aware of that
specifically verify or conclusively establish that a suspect armed with an
edged weapon will more likely than not be able to seriously injure or kill
an officer armed with a sidearm on all occasions and circumstances. The
truth is that the 21-Foot Rule should not be considered to be an absolute
rule at all because there are too many variables involved at this point to
call it a "rule." Let's discuss them.

The Variables

Psychophysiology-This is the study of how the brain influences and affects
physiological function. Science tells us that humans possess both a
forebrain and a midbrain. The forebrain is where cognitive processing and
decision-making take place. The midbrain plays a role in situational
awareness, sleep, arousal, alertness, and trained and subconscious memories.

When an officer experiences a threat, it takes on average .58 seconds to
experience the threat and determine if it is real. It then takes on average
.56 to 1.0 seconds to make a response decision. Humans have five possible
responses to threat: defend (fight), disengage (retreat), posture (yell,
point a finger, act aggressive), become hypervigilant (panic, confusion,
freezing, using force excessively), and submit (surrender).

When a human is threatened, the brain automatically infuses the body with
adrenalin (stimulant), endorphins (pain blockers), and dopamine (euphoric
pain blocker). The body uses these chemicals to help us survive an encounter
by making us faster, stronger, and more pain tolerant. However, these same
chemicals can also significantly diminish our performance under intense
stress by causing such problems as perceptional narrowing (tunnel vision),
loss of near vision, and auditory occlusion (reduced hearing) or exclusion
(loss of hearing). This ultimately negatively affects our chances of
surviving a violent encounter.

Under the intense stress normally associated with deadly force threat
scenarios and while under the influence of survival chemicals, the body's
basal metabolic rate, measured by heart rate, blood pressure, and
respiration, climbs significantly in milliseconds. This dynamic can cause
further psychophysiological impairments such as vasoconstriction, which can
impair weapon manipulation, cognitive processing, and stress memory recall
following an encounter.

Equipment and competency-Several factors affect an officer's survival
against an attacker. For instance, an officer or detective whose sidearm is
secured in a Level III holster will certainly have a slower draw-to-target
acquisition time than an officer drawing from a Level I holster. An
officer's experience and competency with his or her holster system and
combat shooting style are also critical human factors in that officer's
ability to draw, move off the line of attack, and direct accurate fire upon
an armed assailant.

Accuracy of fire at close distances-The average officer in static firearms
qualifications (non-timed, standing, and shooting without moving) can hit
the 9 and 10 rings far more often than not from the five-yard line. However,
research of actual OIS incidents has shown that officers can only accurately
hit their moving assailants 14% of the time in life-or-death situations from
distances of only two to 10 feet. On the other hand, assailants were able to
successfully engage and hit officers 68% of the time within those same
distances.

Perception lag-Once the average officer gets on target, it takes him or her
.56 seconds to make a decision to commence shooting. However, it then takes
that same officer .25 to .31/100ths of a second per trigger pull to fire. As
the deadly force scenario rapidly evolves, it takes that same officer on
average .5 to .6 seconds to realize that the threat has passed and to stop
shooting. This is because of a psychophysiological dynamic referred to as
"perception action-reaction lag time."

The reason why some suspects are found to have entry wounds in their sides
and backs when the officers who shot them say the suspects were facing them
when they fired is often the perception action-reaction lag time and the
manner in which information was processed by the officers' brains. This is
pretty sophisticated information for a criminal or civil jury to understand
and consider.

Fantasy or Forensic Fact

The fields of contemporary police practices and applied sciences are rapidly
changing. Applied science, by its nature, supports or rejects hypotheses and
theories based upon the reconciliation of scientific statements, facts, and
evidence. However, law enforcement is more inclined to be archaic and
married to non-forensic, speculative dogma that often goes unchallenged and
becomes widely accepted as fact.

It is my opinion that Lt. John Tueller did us all a tremendous service in at
least starting a discussion and educating us about action vs. reaction and
perception-reaction lag. This has certainly saved many lives within our
ranks. However, it is certainly time to move forward with a far more
scientific analysis that actually seeks to support or reject this
hypothesis.

Whether the "21-Foot Rule" is an applicable defense in an officer-involved
shooting actually depends upon the facts and evidence of each case. The
shooting of a knife-wielding suspect at less than 21 feet by an experienced,
competent, and well-equipped officer who has the tactical advantage of an
obstruction such as a police vehicle between herself and her attacker might
be inappropriate. But the shooting of a knife-wielding assailant at more
than 21 feet by an inexperienced officer, wearing a difficult holster
system, with no obstructions between herself and the attacker might be
justified.

As the 1989 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Graham v. Connor (490 U.S. 386, 109
S.Ct) has eloquently stated, each high-risk encounter during a rapidly
evolving situation is unique. My sense is that future research may
underscore that legal principle with respect to the Tueller Drill.

Note: The author would like to thank forensic expert team members Homicide
Lt. Bob Prevot (Ret.), M.A., ballistic scientist/firearms expert Lance
Martini, M.S., firearms expert Larry Nichols, and NSW operational
psychologist and psychiatry professor Douglas Johnson, Ph.D., for reviewing
and contributing to this article.

Ron Martinelli, Ph.D., is a nationally renowned forensic criminologist
specializing in police death cases, use of force, human factors, and
psychophysiology. Dr. Martinelli is a retired law enforcement officer who
directs the nation's only multidisciplinary civilian Forensic Death
Investigation Team at Martinelli & Associates, Inc. He can be reached at
(951) 719-1450 and www.martinelliandassoc.com. His firm is presently engaged
in a major forensic scientific project reanalyzing the "21-Foot Rule." If
you are interested in volunteering for this important project, please
contact his office.

Related Video:

http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/22/how-are-cops-trained-for-deadly-for

References:

1.. The Tueller Drill, Video Interview with Lt. Dennis Tueller (Ret),
GunWebsites,
03-25-11
2.. How Close Is Too Close? (Article) Tueller, Dennis, SWAT Magazine,
03-1983
3.. Understanding & Leveraging the Psychophysiology of Emotional
Intensity, Sztajnkrycer, Matthew, M.D., Ph.D., Force Science Institute®,
Minnesota State University, Presentation at San Jose (CA) Police Department,
02-08-10
4.. Ibid.
5.. Processing Under Pressure: Stress, Memory and Decision Making in Law
Enforcement, Sharps, Matthew, Ph.D., © 2010, Loose Leaf Publishing,
Flushing, N.Y.
6.. Some fundamental of Human Performance: Applications to Police
Activities, Schmidt, Richard, Ph.D., Force Science Institute®, Minnesota
State University, Presentation at San Jose (CA) Police Department, 02-09-10
7.. Violent Encounters - A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law
Enforcement Officers, U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of
Investigations, Publication #0383, 2006
8.. Reaction Times in Lethal Force Encounters, The Tempe Study, (Article)
Lewinski, Bill, Ph.D., Hudson, Bill, Ph.D., The Police Magazine, Sept/Oct.,
2003, pp. 26 - 29
9.. The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and in Peace,
Grossman, D.A., PPCT Research Publications, 2004
10.. Deadly Force Encounters: What Cops Need to Know to Mentally and
Physically Prepare for and Survive A Gunfight, Artwhol, A, Christensen, L,
Paladin Press, 1997
11.. Sharpening the Warrior's Edge: The Psychology & Science of Training,
PPCT Research Publications, 1995
12.. Motor Learning and Performance, Schmidt, R.A. and Wrisberg, C.A., 3rd
Edition, Human Kinetics Publishers, 2004
13.. Human Perception and Performance, (Article) Keetch, K.M., Schmidt,
R.A., & Young, D.E., Journal of Experimental Psychology, 2005, No. 31,
970-978
Tags:
Tueller Drill Knife Attacks Winning Edge
rbowman
2016-12-03 06:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in 'Justified'...
RD Sandman
2016-12-03 16:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor and
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider" movies
with Harrison Ford.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Wayne
2016-12-03 22:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor and
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider" movies
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to hit
the target before it gets past you.
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your shoulder
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before getting
hit from the back.

It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
RD Sandman
2016-12-04 18:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor and
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider" movies
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to hit
the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your shoulder
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before getting
hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Wayne
2016-12-04 20:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to hit
the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before getting
hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to pull
off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in time.
Dechucka
2016-12-04 20:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to hit
the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before getting
hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to pull
off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in time.
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser the
bugger
Wayne
2016-12-04 21:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to hit
the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before getting
hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in time.
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Dechucka
2016-12-04 22:10:18 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
Dechucka
2016-12-04 22:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.

Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21 feet of
you
Wayne
2016-12-05 03:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21 feet
of you
As for your, I try not to comment on such because it happens to me also.

The point you make is what makes police work difficult. Cops who draw
are second guessed out the wazoo unless they are actually attacked.
Dechucka
2016-12-05 05:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21 feet
of you
As for your, I try not to comment on such because it happens to me also.
The point you make is what makes police work difficult. Cops who draw are
second guessed out the wazoo unless they are actually attacked.
Much easier to shoot someone from outside the 21 feet
RD Sandman
2016-12-05 16:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Dechucka
2016-12-05 19:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
It will make having a conversation with anybody difficult.
rbowman
2016-12-06 02:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
It will make having a conversation with anybody difficult.
The sheriffs were at a trailhead investigating a complaint about someone
acting strangely when I came down the trail with my pack and a .357 in a
shoulder holster. I think they sent the lowest seniority sheriff over to
interview me while the other four hung back about 30'. We had a friendly
conversation.
Dechucka
2016-12-06 07:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Dechucka
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
It will make having a conversation with anybody difficult.
The sheriffs were at a trailhead investigating a complaint about someone
acting strangely when I came down the trail with my pack and a .357 in a
shoulder holster. I think they sent the lowest seniority sheriff over to
interview me while the other four hung back about 30'. We had a friendly
conversation.
At 21ft you should of drawn your weapon, they may have had knives
RD Sandman
2016-12-06 16:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
It will make having a conversation with anybody difficult.
Yes, but at this point, hopefully you have decided who wants a
conversation and who is a threat.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Dechucka
2016-12-06 19:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
It will make having a conversation with anybody difficult.
Yes, but at this point, hopefully you have decided who wants a
conversation and who is a threat.
Hopefully you are correct
PaxPerPoten
2016-12-06 05:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
No! *BANG*!
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
Dechucka
2016-12-06 07:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
No! *BANG*!
exactly, it will been fu at Maccas when the Mexican fry cooker shoots you
for getting within 21 feet of the counter
RD Sandman
2016-12-06 16:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
No! *BANG*!
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get that
close.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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Dechucka
2016-12-06 19:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
No! *BANG*!
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get that
close.
They could be trying to rape you!!!
PaxPerPoten
2016-12-07 05:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by RD Sandman
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
No! *BANG*!
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get that
close.
They could be trying to rape you!!!
Or vice versa.
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
Michael A. Terrell
2016-12-07 02:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get that
close.
Anyone named 'Willy Nilly' needs to be shot, on general principals. ;-)
--
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)
PaxPerPoten
2016-12-07 05:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Terrell
Post by RD Sandman
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get that
close.
Anyone named 'Willy Nilly' needs to be shot, on general principals. ;-)
I second that motion..With a name like that ..It just has to be a crazy
Canuck or a bellicose Brit.
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
RD Sandman
2016-12-07 20:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Terrell
Post by RD Sandman
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get
that close.
Anyone named 'Willy Nilly' needs to be shot, on general
principals. ;-)
A truism. ;)
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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PaxPerPoten
2016-12-07 05:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by PaxPerPoten
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot
Taser the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
Cool your screwed
sorry you're.
Only solution is to have your weapon drawn if anyone gets within 21
feet of you
Bingo!!
No! *BANG*!
Sorry, but you really can't start shooting people willy nilly who get that
close.
Well shit! Then I don't want to play...
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
PaxPerPoten
2016-12-05 06:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne
Post by Dechucka
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also trained
and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in 'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to hit
the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before getting
hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in time.
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
That doesn't solve the problem by changing YOUR weapon.
There is no reaction that is faster then action.. That is taught in
Martial arts.
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
RD Sandman
2016-12-05 16:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force
instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also
trained and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to
hit the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from
a crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife
thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before
getting hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in
time.
Bloke with knife what would your immediate reaction be? 21 foot Taser
the bugger
Cops are not supposed to do that unless under actual attack. That is the
point of the Teuller Drill. To let them know that it isn't anywhere near
as easy as it looks.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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RD Sandman
2016-12-05 16:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also
trained and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to
hit the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from
a crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife
thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before
getting hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in
time.
Yep. I wouldn't want to try the 21 foot rule with Miculek, but there are
tons of other shooters out there who are much, much slower.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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Just Wondering
2016-12-05 20:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also
trained and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in
'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to
hit the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from
a crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife
thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before
getting hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in
time.
Yep. I wouldn't want to try the 21 foot rule with Miculek, but there are
tons of other shooters out there who are much, much slower.
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
rbowman
2016-12-06 02:43:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
Just Wondering
2016-12-06 10:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
If you're going to hang in talk.politics.guns you would
do well to learn the lingo. In the firearms community,
GGWG is a Good Guy With a Gun.
rbowman
2016-12-06 14:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Just Wondering
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
If you're going to hang in talk.politics.guns you would
do well to learn the lingo. In the firearms community,
GGWG is a Good Guy With a Gun.
I hang in alt.survival and don't trim the headers from the
cross-posters. It might be a term in your firearms community but I've
never seen it before.
RD Sandman
2016-12-06 16:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
If you're going to hang in talk.politics.guns you would
do well to learn the lingo. In the firearms community,
GGWG is a Good Guy With a Gun.
I hang in alt.survival and don't trim the headers from the
cross-posters. It might be a term in your firearms community but I've
never seen it before.
You are forgiven.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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Just Wondering
2016-12-06 22:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
If you're going to hang in talk.politics.guns you would
do well to learn the lingo. In the firearms community,
GGWG is a Good Guy With a Gun.
I hang in alt.survival and don't trim the headers from the
cross-posters. It might be a term in your firearms community
but I've never seen it before.
Does GGWG mean Green Growth Working Group in alt.survival?
Dechucka
2016-12-06 22:12:06 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by Just Wondering
Does GGWG mean Green Growth Working Group in alt.survival?
Actually Go Go Wankers Go
news16
2016-12-07 01:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Just Wondering
Post by rbowman
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond to
any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
If you're going to hang in talk.politics.guns you would do well to
learn the lingo. In the firearms community,
GGWG is a Good Guy With a Gun.
I hang in alt.survival and don't trim the headers from the
cross-posters. It might be a term in your firearms community but I've
never seen it before.
Does GGWG mean Green Growth Working Group in alt.survival?
Nope, great greasy wanker group
rbowman
2016-12-07 02:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Just Wondering
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
Post by rbowman
Post by Just Wondering
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
Green Growth Working Group?
If you're going to hang in talk.politics.guns you would
do well to learn the lingo. In the firearms community,
GGWG is a Good Guy With a Gun.
I hang in alt.survival and don't trim the headers from the
cross-posters. It might be a term in your firearms community
but I've never seen it before.
Does GGWG mean Green Growth Working Group in alt.survival?
No, but that's one of the things I came up with after googling it. GGWG
doesn't seem to have gained any traction outside of t.p.g. Maybe I
should subscribe and find out what it's up to. kek
RD Sandman
2016-12-06 16:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Just Wondering
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force
instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also
trained and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in 'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to
hit the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm
from a crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife
thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before
getting hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in
time.
Yep. I wouldn't want to try the 21 foot rule with Miculek, but there
are tons of other shooters out there who are much, much slower.
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
That's true. Then there are those who fail. Don't forget to add the
delay of surprise that the person is actually attacking you.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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Just Wondering
2016-12-06 22:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Just Wondering
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force
instructors discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety,
firearms, and deadly force training. As a use-of-force
instructor
and
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by raykeller
a practicing forensic police practices expert, I have also
trained and testified to this concept myself.
The best application of the 21 foot rule I've seen was in 'Justified'...
That scene worked for me. As did the one in one of the "Raider"
movies
Post by Wayne
Post by RD Sandman
with Harrison Ford.
Yes indeed.
And those who doubt the 21 foot rule should try it.
The first time, it is a true eyeopener.
Post by Wayne
I've tried it two ways.
1. Target is on a roller mount and when set in motion, you have to
hit the target before it gets past you.
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm
from a crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife
thrust.
Post by Wayne
2. Guy stands 21 feet behind you and on signal runs to hit your
shoulder
Post by Wayne
from the back. Facing the other way you try to dry fire before
getting hit from the back.
It's hard enough to do when you know it's going to happen.
If you are surprised by the start, you almost always fail.
Bingo!! We even had the guys trade places....that also opened some eyes.
And if you don't have one in the chamber already.....you've got to
pull off a miracle to get it out of a holster and slide racked in
time.
Yep. I wouldn't want to try the 21 foot rule with Miculek, but there
are tons of other shooters out there who are much, much slower.
The fact remains there are plenty of GGWG folk who successfully
defend themselves and others without having trained to respond
to any such rule.
That's true. Then there are those who fail. Don't forget to add the
delay of surprise that the person is actually attacking you.
Then again, most assailants (a) have no training either, and
b) don't rush at you like those in "21 foot rule" training do.
Often, the bad guys are more like this:

Dechucka
2016-12-06 22:10:03 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by Just Wondering
Post by RD Sandman
That's true. Then there are those who fail. Don't forget to add the
delay of surprise that the person is actually attacking you.
Then again, most assailants (a) have no training either, and
b) don't rush at you like those in "21 foot rule" training do.
Very few assailants can accelerate like Bolt so 1 second is BS. HOWEVER you
shouldn't let anyone get too close so have your weapon drawn at all times
and scare them off even if they are only trying to get to their car parked
next to your
rbowman
2016-12-04 21:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Sometimes I work with a shot timer to point out how bad I am. On bad
days it takes me north or 2 seconds to draw and fire one accurate shot
and that's knowing the Pocket Pro is going to buzz sometime in the next
few seconds.
RD Sandman
2016-12-05 16:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by RD Sandman
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Sometimes I work with a shot timer to point out how bad I am. On bad
days it takes me north or 2 seconds to draw and fire one accurate shot
and that's knowing the Pocket Pro is going to buzz sometime in the next
few seconds.
Pocket Pro? You sure you aren't being distracted by something in your
front pocket? ;)
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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rbowman
2016-12-06 02:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by RD Sandman
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Sometimes I work with a shot timer to point out how bad I am. On bad
days it takes me north or 2 seconds to draw and fire one accurate shot
and that's knowing the Pocket Pro is going to buzz sometime in the next
few seconds.
Pocket Pro? You sure you aren't being distracted by something in your
front pocket? ;)
Nah, little blue digital timers just don't excite me...

http://www.competitionelectronics.com/product/pocket-pro/

They're pretty handy for reinforcing the idea you're not Jerry Miculek.
RD Sandman
2016-12-06 16:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by RD Sandman
Post by rbowman
Post by RD Sandman
We did it with a holstered firearm and the guy hitting your arm from a
crouching position 21 feet away. We were simulating a knife thrust.
Sometimes I work with a shot timer to point out how bad I am. On bad
days it takes me north or 2 seconds to draw and fire one accurate shot
and that's knowing the Pocket Pro is going to buzz sometime in the next
few seconds.
Pocket Pro? You sure you aren't being distracted by something in your
front pocket? ;)
Nah, little blue digital timers just don't excite me...
http://www.competitionelectronics.com/product/pocket-pro/
They're pretty handy for reinforcing the idea you're not Jerry Miculek.
Yes, indeedy, they are.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
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Mr. B1ack
2016-12-03 06:41:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.

I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.

On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second. It's three quick strides. This
isn't a matter for dispute ; as I said *anybody* can personally
repeat this experiment - and younger = faster. Truth shall
set you free .... unless you think ideology defines Truth
rather than the other way around.

A transition event of only one second - from "safe" perp
to "attacking" perp - is pretty much too short for anybody
to react to with any nuance. It's about enough time to
pull a trigger before the perp slits your throat ... that's all.
No margin for error.

If you're disputing the "21-foot" concept then you're absolutely
full of shit. Frankly I'd say "25 foot" or even "30 foot" is more
accurate.

So, cops, perp gets within the one-second range - SHOOT
them if you wanna go home to the significant other and kids.
Anybody who suggests differently is working for THEM instead.
They are NOT your friends.
Dechucka
2016-12-03 23:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Dechucka
2016-12-04 00:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
After repeating the drill numerous times, Tueller-who is now
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Further to this Bolt in his WR covered the first 10m in 1.88 seconds giving
a generous 1.32 secs for the first 7m. I say generous because he is still
accelerating during the last 3m
Mr. B1ack
2016-12-04 02:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
After repeating the drill numerous times, Tueller-who is now
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Further to this Bolt in his WR covered the first 10m in 1.88 seconds giving
a generous 1.32 secs for the first 7m. I say generous because he is still
accelerating during the last 3m
21 feet is not 10 meters. I'm sure there are online
calculators you could use ............

Anyway, as I said, quit with the bullshit and TRY it.
There are low-rez methods - or, if you're feeling
extra geeky, set up a couple of trip wires and an
electronic start/stop timer. WHAT WOULD THE
MYTHBUSTERS DO ?

In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
Dechucka
2016-12-04 09:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training
objective
was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Further to this Bolt in his WR covered the first 10m in 1.88 seconds giving
a generous 1.32 secs for the first 7m. I say generous because he is still
accelerating during the last 3m
21 feet is not 10 meters. I'm sure there are online
calculators you could use ............
Anyway, as I said, quit with the bullshit and TRY it.
There are low-rez methods - or, if you're feeling
extra geeky, set up a couple of trip wires and an
electronic start/stop timer. WHAT WOULD THE
MYTHBUSTERS DO ?
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Mr. B1ack
2016-12-05 15:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training
objective
was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Further to this Bolt in his WR covered the first 10m in 1.88 seconds giving
a generous 1.32 secs for the first 7m. I say generous because he is still
accelerating during the last 3m
21 feet is not 10 meters. I'm sure there are online
calculators you could use ............
Anyway, as I said, quit with the bullshit and TRY it.
There are low-rez methods - or, if you're feeling
extra geeky, set up a couple of trip wires and an
electronic start/stop timer. WHAT WOULD THE
MYTHBUSTERS DO ?
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?

Didn't think so ...........
Dechucka
2016-12-05 19:23:56 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then Bolt, You
are a bull shit artist
Mr. B1ack
2016-12-05 23:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then Bolt, You
are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.

There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...

Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
Dechucka
2016-12-06 07:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then Bolt, You
are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.
There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...
Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
I know you are a bullshit artist " On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was
able (and I'm no spring chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the
21 foot mark in under a literal second."
RD Sandman
2016-12-06 16:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then
Bolt, You are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.
There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...
Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
I know you are a bullshit artist " On a floor with 12-inch tiles I
was able (and I'm no spring chicken by any stretch) to launch myself
over the 21 foot mark in under a literal second."
And you would be the one threatening the officer, not the officer and
would have no reaction time to consider.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Mr. B1ack
2016-12-07 02:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then
Bolt, You are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.
There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...
Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
I know you are a bullshit artist " On a floor with 12-inch tiles I
was able (and I'm no spring chicken by any stretch) to launch myself
over the 21 foot mark in under a literal second."
And you would be the one threatening the officer, not the officer and
would have no reaction time to consider.
The aggressor always has the edge.

People constantly overestimate how quickly they can
react - you can tell fer-sure by the way they drive.

Every try that trick with the $20 bill ... where someone
holds one just above your fingers and you have to try
and catch it before it slips by ? It's rare for anyone to
grab the bill ... even though it LOOKS easy and most
people feel SURE they can react in time.

On TV/Movies there's a distorted sense of time because
you're not ACTUALLY doing/experiencing whatever. You
think people have lots of time to react, but they don't.
You'll call the guy who fails to dive out of the way of the
car rolling backwards down the hill a moron ... why, he
had LOTS of time to figure out what to do ! Probably
just two or three seconds - but it SEEMS longer if your
brain is tripping on video.

In any case, a hyped-up young perp can easily bound
21 feet in about a second. It'll take the cop most of
that second to realize the perp is no longer standing still.
No time left over for a sophisticated response. He is
in a very real complex world ... YOU are sitting in a
lay-z-boy watching an iPhone video with few
distractions. You'll SAY "Oh, he had PLENTY of time
to <fill-in-blank> !". He didn't.
Dechucka
2016-12-07 03:24:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then
Bolt, You are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.
There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...
Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
I know you are a bullshit artist " On a floor with 12-inch tiles I
was able (and I'm no spring chicken by any stretch) to launch myself
over the 21 foot mark in under a literal second."
And you would be the one threatening the officer, not the officer and
would have no reaction time to consider.
The aggressor always has the edge.
People constantly overestimate how quickly they can
react - you can tell fer-sure by the way they drive.
Every try that trick with the $20 bill ... where someone
holds one just above your fingers and you have to try
and catch it before it slips by ? It's rare for anyone to
grab the bill ... even though it LOOKS easy and most
people feel SURE they can react in time.
On TV/Movies there's a distorted sense of time because
you're not ACTUALLY doing/experiencing whatever. You
think people have lots of time to react, but they don't.
You'll call the guy who fails to dive out of the way of the
car rolling backwards down the hill a moron ... why, he
had LOTS of time to figure out what to do ! Probably
just two or three seconds - but it SEEMS longer if your
brain is tripping on video.
In any case, a hyped-up young perp can easily bound
21 feet in about a second.
one called Bolt maybe
RD Sandman
2016-12-07 20:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 06:23:56 +1100, "Dechucka" <Dechucka1
@hotmail.com>
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then
Bolt, You are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.
There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...
Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
I know you are a bullshit artist " On a floor with 12-inch tiles I
was able (and I'm no spring chicken by any stretch) to launch myself
over the 21 foot mark in under a literal second."
And you would be the one threatening the officer, not the officer and
would have no reaction time to consider.
The aggressor always has the edge.
People constantly overestimate how quickly they can
react - you can tell fer-sure by the way they drive.
Every try that trick with the $20 bill ... where someone
holds one just above your fingers and you have to try
and catch it before it slips by ? It's rare for anyone to
grab the bill ... even though it LOOKS easy and most
people feel SURE they can react in time.
Bingo!!
Post by Mr. B1ack
On TV/Movies there's a distorted sense of time because
you're not ACTUALLY doing/experiencing whatever. You
think people have lots of time to react, but they don't.
You'll call the guy who fails to dive out of the way of the
car rolling backwards down the hill a moron ... why, he
had LOTS of time to figure out what to do ! Probably
just two or three seconds - but it SEEMS longer if your
brain is tripping on video.
In any case, a hyped-up young perp can easily bound
21 feet in about a second. It'll take the cop most of
that second to realize the perp is no longer standing still.
No time left over for a sophisticated response. He is
in a very real complex world ... YOU are sitting in a
lay-z-boy watching an iPhone video with few
distractions. You'll SAY "Oh, he had PLENTY of time
to <fill-in-blank> !". He didn't.
So true.
--
RD Sandman

Airspeed, altitude and brains....two of the three are always
required to complete a mission.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Dechucka
2016-12-07 03:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by RD Sandman
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
snip
Post by Mr. B1ack
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
In any case, our cops are not (yet) electronic. It
takes the human brain a noticible - perhaps
embarassing - amount of time to respond to
a change of context even if we're "ready" for it.
Apparently you think they have time to consult
the training manual and take a poll in the time
it takes an agitated young perp to sprint 21
feet ... but that's bullshit. They'll just, MAYBE,
have time to pull the trigger.
You are a bull shit artist
Done the test yet ?
Hey I know I won't do it in less then a second going faster then
Bolt, You are a bull shit artist
Hire some punk to do it then and time him.
Give him a few good hits of crack or meth
first and then scare him if you want a more
real-world evaluation.
There was an opening scene in one of those
older "COPS" episodes where it showed some
young guy leap over a six or eight foot retaining
wall from the sidewalk - and land on his feet above.
It was like he'd skipped up a stair. This is what
people can do when the cops (or tigers) are
after them ...
Anyway ... until you arrange to do The Test, you
don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Cops, 21 feet, SHOOT 'em.
I know you are a bullshit artist " On a floor with 12-inch tiles I
was able (and I'm no spring chicken by any stretch) to launch myself
over the 21 foot mark in under a literal second."
And you would be the one threatening the officer, not the officer and
would have no reaction time to consider.
and he can't do it
amdx
2016-12-04 18:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
After repeating the drill numerous times, Tueller-who is now
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Well, it's not so far out of reality, a 4 minute mile is run at 22 mph.
The world record for the 60 yard dash is run at 30 ft per second.
It is conceivable that many people could run 70% as fast for 21ft as
an expert could run 180 ft. Especially someone enraged enough to go
after a policemen with a knife.
So enraged, that they forgot the rule, don't bring a knife to a
gunfight. :-)
Mikek
Dechucka
2016-12-04 19:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by amdx
Post by Dechucka
Post by Mr. B1ack
On Fri, 2 Dec 2016 22:48:05 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/09/revisiting-the-21-foot-rule.aspx
Departments : The Winning Edge Revisiting the "21-Foot Rule"
The Tueller Drill is often evoked as justification by officers after a
shooting.But is it scientifically defensible?
September 18, 2014 | by Ron Martinelli
Photo: Martinelli & Associates
For decades now many American officers have heard use-of-force instructors
discuss the "21-Foot Rule" during officer safety, firearms, and deadly force
training. As a use-of-force instructor and a practicing forensic police
practices expert, I have also trained and testified to this concept myself.
The 21-foot rule was developed by Lt. John Tueller, a firearms instructor
with the Salt Lake City Police Department. Back in 1983, Tueller set up a
drill where he placed a "suspect" armed with an edged weapon 20 or so feet
away from an officer with a holstered sidearm. He then directed the armed
suspect to run toward the officer in attack mode. The training objective was
to determine whether the officer could draw and accurately fire upon the
assailant before the suspect stabbed him.
an article saying it was entirely possible for a suspect armed with an edged
weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun within a distance
of 21 feet. The so-called "21-Foot Rule" was born and soon spread throughout
the law enforcement community.
But is the "21-Foot Rule" a forensic fact or a police myth?
No.
I've tested this personally. You and anybody else can too.
On a floor with 12-inch tiles I was able (and I'm no spring
chicken by any stretch) to launch myself over the 21 foot
mark in under a literal second.
14 mph not bad and of course BS
Well, it's not so far out of reality, a 4 minute mile is run at 22 mph.
The world record for the 60 yard dash is run at 30 ft per second.
It is conceivable that many people could run 70% as fast for 21ft as
an expert could run 180 ft. Especially someone enraged enough to go after
a policemen with a knife.
So enraged, that they forgot the rule, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
:-)
It is out of reality. Bolt info he did his first 10m in his WR in 1.88
seconds which means generously he did the first 21 feet in 1.2 seconds,
generous as he was still accelerating
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